Bax knows all too well “she had cravings”. If Bax weren’t portrayed as having such poor social skills, I’d think he was trying to manipulate her into talking about what happened in the elevator so he can drop the bomb on her that he was Mark at the time.
Chris Chan is also “honest with his feelings” like most aspies are. This dialogue here is incredibly awkward and stilted in the way high functional aspies talk about their feelings.
Like two poorly programmed robots with feelings having a conversation.
Spoiler: This is a comic about archetypical geeks. They are perhaps less socially adept than… well, I don’t want to say less adept than you, but certainly less adept than most people. What were you expecting from a storyline about their courting rituals?
At LockeZ:
Even with standards as low as conversations between “archetypical geeks” this conversation is stilted. No one has “intimate” conversations like this one in this context using this type of language and gesticulating like robots. Except in bad fiction.
Or when a comedy shows us a couple who are incredibly rational and open about their feelings. Like in cases of the archetypical character that had two psychologists as parents.
Emphasis on “incredibly”.
Coming from an high-functioning aspie: not ALL aspies talk like that. Some do, it’s a common symptom. But not all. Furthermore, having met several of my fellow aspies who DO have that particular problem, they are much, MUCH worse then this. This is somewhat exaggerated, but still standard geek-awkwardness. Furthermore, you shouldn’t assume the writer is an aspie just because of stilted dialogue.
What she describes is the state all non-alpha males live in, constantly. A state that promiscuous assholes assertive alpha-types literally can’t understand because they’ve never had any difficulty in that realm, ever. It takes a high level of trust to have such a conversation, especially with the awkwardness involved. But that’s the only way to dispense with the awkwardness. Most people would achieve that degree of intimacy by sleeping together first; geeks have to go at it the other way around…
Awesonapulus: Man, how do you respond to something like this? I mean, all due respect to actual aspies (and mild autists) in the audience…
I do spend a lot of time looking at screens instead of people. I do find myself wishing my social savoir faire was better developed. But I don’t think I qualify as having an actual disorder. It’s hard to be sure, though, especially since my fields of interest– writing, science fiction, comics, crosswords– do draw in so many people with more serious problems. Since my life as it is usually makes me happy and fulfilled, I’ve decided to leave this question to any future biographers. Don’t fix what ain’t broke, you know?
I used to believe that you could tell a lot about a writer by reading a very small sample of their work. I no longer think so.
Though a lot of my dialogue has a certain thoughtful quality, Bax and Di* are two of the more awkward characters in this series about awkward characters, and this is one of their most difficult moments. I’d worry if things DIDN’T sound herky-jerky.
*(Unlike Hilda, Di has a surface coolness, but doesn’t do well outside her comfort zone, which is one reason she kept teasing Baxter longer than she should’ve.)
Awesonapolus just wants to seem cool and make other people feel socially inept. It makes him feel superior by comparison.
Also, if written dialogue ever seems stilted, it is because you are bad at reading. People speak in different ways. If you can’t imagine someone saying something, it’s because you’re imagining them speaking a different way than the author did – most likely you’re imagining them speaking the way you speak, or in the manner of some incorrect archetype. This is a common problem with novice readers, and one that grade schools don’t really do a good job of trying to fix. Reading, when done right, involves almost all the same skills as acting. It basically *is* acting, in fact, except the stage is in your mind, and your only audience is yourself.
The stilted dialogue didn’t really seem that noticeable to me, although my assessment is colored by being an Aspie who doesn’t usually try to cover over my honest sentiments.
What I’m curious about is the whole love/hate relationship Di and Baxter have been having lately, which seems to mostly depend on comedies of errors of the type so pointedly obvious in the dialogue. Correlation without an obvious reason makes me look for a shared cause.
And I’m enjoying this story… I don’t see the problem then again… I am an Aspie myself.
Still don’t get why this issue of Aspie’s was brought up. I mean if you think there’s something worng with the dialog just say that… >.> And try to improve the problem and not add new ones to it.
And I’m still thinking I’ll be the closest to that silly meaningless bet we had made earlier in this storyline. Because this Date is totally going to end on a high note! I’m 100% sure of it!
Oh, man. I almost forgot how quick the geek crowd is to pull out the “I am an aspie, you see” card. Self-diagnosed in most cases, of course.
@Lockez:
“This is a common problem with novice readers, and one that grade schools don’t really do a good job of trying to fix. Reading, when done right, involves almost all the same skills as acting. It basically *is* acting, in fact, except the stage is in your mind, and your only audience is yourself.”
Or the writing could be the problem and not the reader. But hey, thanks for the passive agressive “You may be a novice reader”. Really. As an insult it is so fake-posh that it is adorable.
“you are reading it wrong” has all the stench of an excuse by a bad writer or a fan of some work when confronted by criticism of the thing he likes. There are cases when the statement can be true, but you still sound bad by saying it.
One of those phrases like “I don’t mean to pry, but…” or “It is too deep, you wouldn’t understand it…” that are completely counterproductive to any attempts to make a point.
@ Campbell:
I have read a lot of your comics. And I have noticed that your characters have a tendency for exposing their feelings very blatantly. They really come out and say it, with a sudden total lack of personal emotional mechanisms after a token time of being “subtle” about it.
Plot point X comes and suddenly character A puts all its emotional cards on the table and discusses it with character B, who responds by also revealing it all.
The result is usually a stilted conversation between two characters who seem to lack all boundaries or mechanisms of emotional self preservation (Unless the situation is so dire that two heart-to-heart conversations are necessary, with one of the parties acting hostile or lying the first time around).
At some level you must already know that your characters tend to be too much like open books. The rest of the cast is hardly surprised when A and B get together or simply already hint at knowing the “secret” that C character has been hiding.
And man, if you notice that the core demographic of what you normally read is composed by abnormal personality types with poor interpersonal skills, you have a serious problem if you intend to develop as a writer for character-driven fiction.
Unless you want to forever have “I am a self diagnosed aspie and I think these are very genuine conversations and realistic characters” as your average reader, really force yourself beyond your usual fields of interest. Really read and analyse books that are too boring for guys like LockeZ. Seriously. Look at that avatar. It is a fat guy with a hat.
Or you could continue like this. You already have a niche market which may satisfy your aspirations and provide you with a steady paycheck.
I have probably crossed a line and been too rude, so I press “Post Comment” with the knowledge that you will probably delete this comment. But seriously. Take a look at the persons defending your work. Your fans. Aren’t you the least bit disatisfied? Oh sure you can’t say anything bad about them because they are the ones willing to pay for your product.
But there’s a fat guy with a hat implying that your writing is too nuanced for “novice writers”.
I am nothing but one of many that doesn’t like your comic, statistically insignificant, but take a look at THAT guy. That is the kind of guy you are pleasing.
Is that satisfying? Really? In terms of a writer and his readers, that would be like giving up and marrying a fat chick.
Excuse me. I’m not fat, I’m just the same color as the wall when my photo is reduced to monochrome.
And this comic doesn’t show every minute of the characters’ lives. Why would the writer show the parts where the characters *don’t* openly talk about the important things? Those conversations, those parts of this coversation are not meaningful. You’ll notice that there was a large time skip from when Di picked up Baxter for the date and when this coversation took place. All that time was spent with your precious “realistic” conversation where they didn’t actually say anything meaningful about themselves or about each-other. But we can imagine what that part was like. So the comic skips to the meat – the two minutes of the date where they actually said something honest. And thank God, because I don’t really want to read an 80 page chapter detailing how a typical first date goes.
Oh wow, T. Awesonapulus has clearly schooled you. Obviously there’s nothing for you to do but sit at his feet and learn “good writing” from him, so that people can continue to “pay for your product,” said product being a free webcomic.
And of course, Awesonapulus’s posts are solely motivated by a sincere desire to see you get a better class of fan than an Aspie. (Because we all know people with Aspberger’s Syndrome are terrible and no one should ever be associated with them, right?) They’re totally not meant to make him feel better by putting down a bunch of people on the Internet.
Oh, but wait! I’m not an Aspie, self-diagnosed or otherwise. I guess that means I can’t be one of T’s fans. Guess that means I won’t be contributing to T’s vast store of wealth he’s clearly earning from this “product.” (As opposed to writing because he enjoys it and wishes to share his stories with others.) Oh well. I’m sure T is almost as crushed by that as he’s crushed to the point of despair and self-cutting by the realization that he’s a failure as a writer, because all his readers are “fat guys with hats.” Oh, wait, I thought they were all Aspies. Unless the diagnostic criteria for Aspberger’s have been revised to include excess weight and cranial apparel.
Though I do appreciate the hilariousness of using “fat guy in a hat” as an attack on me. Was that really the best you could come up with? I own a hat! I even took a photo of myself in it! Wow, what damning evidence against me!
@alicemacher
If I were here to put you down, I would actually do that rather than comment on the comic. But I am done with that as from this point on the conversation can only continue as snide remarks and insults.
Let me demonstrate I really do not care for “putting you down”. I have said what I wanted to say, so I am leaving. You are entirely free to take this as a gesture of cowardice because I am running away from confrontation. Pat each other on the back if you wish.
My opinion is that the the “intimate” interactions of the characters in this comic seem stilted because the characters suddenly develop aspie-level emotional defenses. That turns conflict resolution formulaic. Like they are b-rate actors demonstrating the doctrine of conflict resolution of a high school counselor.
A pair of robots discussing the mechanics of their feelings. Two vulcans debating mating rituals with a few funny faces thrown in. Like the cast turns aspie when it is time to resolve an emotional issue, regardless of their personalities.
That’s it. No more reiteration.
P.S.
@LockeZ:
You are the very model of a modern Major-Fatty with a hat.
Couldn’t resist a final poke at that guy. “you are reading it wrong, me and this group of self described aspies agree that…” Hahaha.
@Awesonapulus dude its a webcomic that has been popular for many years written by an author that has ALOT of experience and many popular comics… now your critiquing his work and thats fine its your choice and right to do so my only question is what are YOUR qualifications. I would not take a critique of your magnitude from anyone off the internet unless they themselves were an author or publisher or in some form a successful member of the creative writing process.
Now if you have no qualifications then stop whining about how much this wonderfull writer, who gives me some fun and enjoyment during my day just be reading his FREE comic, cant write and go complain somewhere were your insults about his free work and your insults on mental retardation will be better accepted…
go be gone get lost we dont need or want your negativity here…
Awesonapulus,
Your argument about the quality of fans fails flat because you, yourself, must be a fan in order to be posting here and for your claim that you know Campbell’s work to be credible. We can’t take you seriously if you are lumping yourself in a group you are saying should not be taken seriously.
To me, it seems likely that he enjoys humiliating himself with inane, contentless phrases like “playing the Aspie card.”
I cannot think of any other reason, personally. “Trolling” itself is a very subjective sort of category, but there is never, in my experience, a genuine reason for it. (False accusations of “trolling” or of “being the real troll” also get thrown about quite a bit, although in this case, it does seem like he is genuinely convinced of his vague and unclear grudges.)
Personally, I think that to the extent that “trolling” can be explained, it is the result of insufficient attention paid to poor behavior such as the obvious prejudice above. Social norms tend to encourage the opposite, though, unfortunately. “Do not feed the trolls” ends up encouraging bad behavior because there is no social penalty involved.
Case in point — I am still tempted to respond to the ridiculous “diagnosed or undiagnosed” question, but it would play into prejudice to say that I am diagnosed. Am I wrong to share these thoughts? Probably, but less wrong than I would be to keep them hidden, and also less wrong than I’d be to ignore them.
Personally, I’d enjoy it if people would actually understand the comic before making flippant, offensive and hurtful comments that serve no purpose other than to encourage prejudice. That is my own subjective preference. Sorry to take up so much space.
@5ColorControl I agree with Awesonapulus. I’m a fan of this comic for its action adventure. The interpersonal relationship side stories are almost always low points in the comic, but I’m still a fan.
If more people spent less time on 4chan and more time paying attention to the people around them, we’d have less arguments like this, methinks.
Do I think everyone who says they have Aspergers (which incidentally does not appear in the Firefox corrective dictionary– odd, that) actually has Aspergers?
Probably not.
Do I think everyone who says that they talk calm, collected, and emotionally ambiguous all the time does as they say?
Hell no.
I don’t have Aspergers, yet I speak sincerely when speaking about matters like this, because that’s the only way for me to speak about things like this without coming off as a socially inept jackdaw or appearing to be mired in self denial. Interestingly enough, most of the people I have opened up to on a similar level respond in kind.
Even disregarding that possibility, though, unless I live in a section of the world being lightly gassed with truth serum or something, most of the people I know are emotionally open if prompted, and– here’s the silly little crux of my argument– this is a prompting situation.
Di took Bax on a date. Some might say it’s to show him how a real date works, others might say it’s because she genuinely wanted a date with him, others still would say that it’s bad writing. She figured out who he was through the body-swap incident, and he’s obviously coming to terms with the personal revelations he gained from it.
When you take into consideration that (unless things have changed) the body swap technology doesn’t actually swap bodies, just brain patterns, that means that was Bax being Alpha Manly, not Marc. He got a taste of what it was to be 98% self-confident, and appears to be trying to figure out his side of the matter.
Di, on the other hand, is largely confident on the outside, but has superiority issues (remember her many, many mistakes with Ally), and as T stated, doesn’t do well outside her comfort zone (which often manifests as blunt, open statements).
Add to that the fact that he has little experience with females in any context other than them approaching him with ‘I need something from you’ and you’ve got a situation where he can either
A) Brush off his emotions and act insensitive, solving nothing,
B) Try to get through the date with as little conversation possible (least likely to occur given the circumstances),
C) Dance around the point like an idiot until Di either leaves or forces it out of him,
or
D) Get it out in the open now and get it over with, and hope she is willing to discuss it.
I don’t know about you, but I’d rather pick the option with the highest gain:pain ratio, regardless of which position I’m in.
Hah, oh, Awesanalpolos, or whatever you aborted spelling/grammar fetus of a screen name is, I love you guys, I really do. I don’t really have a name for you guys, I mean, there are internet trolls, and then there’s YOUR breed of internet troll. You like to come in, call out people on their flaws, and then flay them with your superior wit, working them into a rage. It gets you attention, and, like a mosquito feeding off an invalid, you feed off of the resulting “lulz”.
Now, the thing is, I’ll admit that, yeah, T’s dialogue doesn’t always run smoothly. But, hell, it runs smoother than most crap I try to write. No one is perfect. If you wanted well-worked dialogue and deep characters, I suggest looking elsewhere, like a classic novel. (I suggest “Where Angels Fear To Tread”, recently read it, great book)
But, hell, that’s supposing that you actually came to this comic looking for something to read. You didn’t. Hell, you probably don’t really read webcomics at all, do you? Nah, you just saw a good, untapped resource for a flame war. I’m really surprised the other people here are taking you seriously. I mean, I don’t take offense when I hear a person with Tourrette’s screaming curse-words. I just ignore ’em. They go about their business.
So, guys, there ya go. What’s the lesson, children? Don’t take stuff on the internet personally. And if you don’t want a flame war, just ignore it. You’re not going to change anyone’s opinion, no matter who it is, by arguing with them over the internet. And, for T.’s sake, even though I like interacting with internet trolls (because I don’t take a damn thing they say seriously), that’s all I’ll say on the matter. Of course, that is, unless Lockez, Alice, or someone whom I know isn’t out trollin’ wants to weigh in on the matter.
Now, if you’ll excuse me, I have a final to write. 😛
Eh, I was merely amused at the whole “I don’t like T’s dialogue, ergo he has Asperger’s and so do all his fans” leap of logic, and decided to indulge my amusement. (As I did once and only once in the Guilded Age blog comments, in response to the barrage of “We hate the direction the story’s taken and demand you change it back to the way it was” complaints.) In the Tea Room forum, T runs a much tighter ship, so I wouldn’t do that there. “Don’t feed trolling,” indeed. (I don’t call people “trolls” because I prefer to focus on the behaviour, not the person.) Besides, we nearly never see in the Tea Room such audacity as directly insulting the writer, not even from certain individuals who repeatedly and compulsively come in only to say how much they hate Penny and Aggie.
The only other thing I’ve to say is that I was pleasantly surprised Awesonapulus let me off so easy in his response. So there’s hope. 😀
@Locke: Man, now you’ve got me dying of curiosity. My impression is that A’s complaint is that there’s a lot of feelings-tell and less feelings-show, but issues with FLOW are another category altogether. You can elaborate on that separately if you like.
Back from a great weekend with the goddaughter, but running behind on scripts and chores, and THIS is the first thing I get to deal with! Oh, boy!
I love my readers, so I try to always give them the benefit of the doubt, even though Awesonapulus’s given e-mail address– notgivingyouthatsoyoucanbanit@gmail.com— was a pretty big tip-off that he was only looking for trouble. Don’t worry, “Awesome,” I won’t ban your e-mail address! Or even your IP, since some nice people might live there. I’ll just be deleting your future comments… unless you force my hand further, in which case I’ll take what measures I deem necessary. You can talk smack about ME all day, but when you start lobbing childish insults at my readers, then it goes too far.
I’m sort of glad this conversation happened, though. For one thing, I’ve been living with slight uncertainty about my mental-health status for years. Since this happened, I’ve had many friends– one of which is a former mental health professional– inform me that there’s “no way in hell” I have Asperger’s. There’s a lot of misinformation going around about what the syndrome is, exactly, and I’m afraid I may have bought into some of it. I’m just a quirky oddball freak.
For another, it is worth examining, this tendency of mine to have characters talk openly about their feelings. I think it probably grows out of a belief that such openness leads to a healthy, happy life, and frustration with many TV shows I watched in my formative years. In those shows, even five minutes of such conversation could have resolved dozens of stupid conflicts. The refusal to do so made me lose respect for the characters. Maybe it did make them more realistic (honesty is often difficult), but it made them realistic characters I didn’t care about.
I also have to bear medium-related constraints in mind. Readers’ interpretations of any situation can vary wildly, no matter how it’s presented. Given that, there is a certain pressure to err on the side of clarity when it’s really important to give them the right idea.
I have roughly four frames each time to make something interesting happen. If it’s not something funny or exciting, then it better be significant.
Your Mileage May Vary. I enjoy the work of Brian Michael Bendis, whose style some find mannered and some find very naturalistic. He’d never do a talk like this: even when his characters are being introspective, they parcel out their insights a lot more slowly. Most best-selling novelists seem to eschew introspective dialogue and reserve their insights for the text, or thus has been my recent experience with Ian McEwan, Jonathan Franzen and Jennifer Egan. But then you see plays like Romeo and Juliet, which uses it frequently, or No Exit, which is almost nothing but.
I’m constantly refining my approach, so I do like to go on about this. Gotta get some work done now, though. In closing, I’d say that there are definitely more thoughtful conversations to come in my future stories, but I will try to bear in mind– at least, until I internalize this– opportunities to make them more natural-sounding. (Again, in Bax and Di’s case, I think the awkwardness IS what’s natural for them.)
@Kadzooque:
Please re-read my comment. I said nothing about Awesonapulus’ likes or dislikes when it comes to the COMIC, or whether or not I agree or disagree with his assessment when it comes to the character’s relationships.
as a long time reader and fan of faans, I honestly have to agree with points brought up by mr troll. I have never met people who talk like this, ever. still a big fan of the comic though, I guess it doesn’t get in my way enough to bother me, since I enjoy the plot and crazy adventures enough.
Man, I’d almost rather be completely demonized than hear “compliments” like “I love it, but I never met anyone who talks like this” or “Hey, nobody’s perfect, I didn’t come here for well-worked dialogue or deep characters. I just like when they punch stuff.”
I’ve recently heard a few more people say that this is turning out very like dates they’ve had with friends, so I’m starting to think that some of you guys need to go out and meet more people… or at least stop assuming you know the full range of how people express themselves. Nobody’s spoken about any internal inconsistencies: just how “foreign” the characters feel to their experience. Being a geek does not mean you automatically know what all geeks are like.
I mean, I don’t want to become blind to criticism, but when some people are telling me “nobody talks like this” and others are telling me “I talk like this,” I start to think the problem isn’t with me, after all.
Tempted as I am to link directly to TV Tropes (because I’m a geek), I won’t. 😀 Nevertheless, the wiki has a fine article entitled “Realistic Diction Is Unrealistic,” which makes the same point a number of writing instructors do. And that point is: if you’re looking for “real-life” dialogue in fiction, well…keep looking. In real life, people stutter, repeat themselves, insert filler words and syllables, interrupt each other, make asides (“And then she says–God, this coffee sucks–‘What are you thinking?'”), and generally do things that would make their conversation unbearably tedious and, yes, awkward to read as part of a story. Also, real-life conversations, much like real life in general, don’t always have tidy beginnings, climaxes and conclusions. The requirements of fiction, however, are different, in that dialogue is mean to suit the needs of the plot, and not of verisimilitude to reality. Also, as T says, dialogue in fiction is meant to suit the characters who speak it. So if a character is a lacking in social graces, laying all cards on the table sort of person, her dialogue should reflect that. Just as if a character is a smooth, socially at-ease type who conceals as much, or more, as he reveals, his dialogue should reflect that.
If “real-life” dialogue is what some people are after, that’s perfectly acceptable. They would, however, do better to seek that by eavesdropping in coffee shops, or in line at the airport, than by reading fiction.
Ya know, if I had any complaint with your writings, it’d be that you do the show, don’t tell thing a bit too much where it becomes difficult to understand certain details. I only mention this because you just said that your interpretation of A’s complaint was the exact opposite. But, if you did make things more expository instead of showing it, it would feel different. So I guess the point of this is to keep doing what you’re doing. I know you’re always seeking to improve yourself, but sometimes, some things just don’t need to be improved if they’re already good enough, and your writing is brilliant, in my opinion.
Catching up with the archives…for anyone that comes after me: did you also find it funny that the guy ridiculing aspies spent a couple paragraphs mocking a guy’s gravatar?
Hope you don’t mind me lurking around the archives. I can normally do that without chiming in a conversation that’s several months old in which the most important issues have already been brought up, but this particular conversation jumped at me.
Troll boy didn’t even bothered to actually read the comic he was too cool to enjoy. Troll boy’s whole case was “I don’t talk like this, therefore this dialog doesn’t ring true”. In other words, “this comic blows because I’m not in it”
Troll boy wasn’t bothered by the fact a guy like Baxter isn’t supposed to sound like Joe Sixpack. Baxter is cursed with being snarky, self-conscious, a little neurotic and, worst of all, Genre Savvy. He knows what kind of character he is supposed to be: scrawny tech-head outcast who gawks awkwardly at girls like Di (or at girls in general). Baxter obviously objects to this simplistic labeling and tries to go against it, but he seems to be the first to admit he’s not sure how. Baxter is smart enough to know Di can see all this clearly, and knows that trying to feed Di a crock of BS head games is an insult to both her and himself, as well as a huge waste of time. Hence, Baxter bares his cards exposed.
Now, Di is quite a different kind of person, but she’s smart and Genre Savvy as well. She seems used to deal with guys like Baxter (with all kinds of guys, really). She can talk their language (so to speak) and empathize. Actually, that’s the reason she instigated this little date in the first place, isn’t it? To talk to Baxter and find out what he felt for her. Obviously, you can’t ask someone to strip bare their feelings for you without doing so yourself (that is, if you’re not a shrink) so, once again, there’s why those two doodles are getting their emotions out into the open so blatantly.
That would have been easy to comprehend if Mr. Troll boy would have just looked at the words as well as the pretty drawings (instead of being staring at other people’s gravatars looking for cute guys)
At least he had the presence of mind to not fly apart and actually as for her to explain what she meant. Given who we know him to be, that’s what she should expect, so he’s not being unreasonable. He’s actually trying to figure out what’s going on.
Well, now they’re both being honest, which is
in my book.
past tense of the word. not a good sign for him
Epic rage face, Bax. Choo-choo!
Bax knows all too well “she had cravings”. If Bax weren’t portrayed as having such poor social skills, I’d think he was trying to manipulate her into talking about what happened in the elevator so he can drop the bomb on her that he was Mark at the time.
This date is going well!
Not really.
Was the dialogue of this comic written by an aspie?
@Awsonapulus: If being honest woth a woman about my feelings is a symptom, I don’t want to be cured.
At Ben_nbtmn:
Chris Chan is also “honest with his feelings” like most aspies are. This dialogue here is incredibly awkward and stilted in the way high functional aspies talk about their feelings.
Like two poorly programmed robots with feelings having a conversation.
Spoiler: This is a comic about archetypical geeks. They are perhaps less socially adept than… well, I don’t want to say less adept than you, but certainly less adept than most people. What were you expecting from a storyline about their courting rituals?
At LockeZ:
Even with standards as low as conversations between “archetypical geeks” this conversation is stilted. No one has “intimate” conversations like this one in this context using this type of language and gesticulating like robots. Except in bad fiction.
Or when a comedy shows us a couple who are incredibly rational and open about their feelings. Like in cases of the archetypical character that had two psychologists as parents.
Emphasis on “incredibly”.
Coming from an high-functioning aspie: not ALL aspies talk like that. Some do, it’s a common symptom. But not all. Furthermore, having met several of my fellow aspies who DO have that particular problem, they are much, MUCH worse then this. This is somewhat exaggerated, but still standard geek-awkwardness. Furthermore, you shouldn’t assume the writer is an aspie just because of stilted dialogue.
What she describes is the state all non-alpha males live in, constantly. A state that
promiscuous assholesassertive alpha-types literally can’t understand because they’ve never had any difficulty in that realm, ever. It takes a high level of trust to have such a conversation, especially with the awkwardness involved. But that’s the only way to dispense with the awkwardness. Most people would achieve that degree of intimacy by sleeping together first; geeks have to go at it the other way around…Awesonapulus: Man, how do you respond to something like this? I mean, all due respect to actual aspies (and mild autists) in the audience…
I do spend a lot of time looking at screens instead of people. I do find myself wishing my social savoir faire was better developed. But I don’t think I qualify as having an actual disorder. It’s hard to be sure, though, especially since my fields of interest– writing, science fiction, comics, crosswords– do draw in so many people with more serious problems. Since my life as it is usually makes me happy and fulfilled, I’ve decided to leave this question to any future biographers. Don’t fix what ain’t broke, you know?
I used to believe that you could tell a lot about a writer by reading a very small sample of their work. I no longer think so.
Though a lot of my dialogue has a certain thoughtful quality, Bax and Di* are two of the more awkward characters in this series about awkward characters, and this is one of their most difficult moments. I’d worry if things DIDN’T sound herky-jerky.
*(Unlike Hilda, Di has a surface coolness, but doesn’t do well outside her comfort zone, which is one reason she kept teasing Baxter longer than she should’ve.)
Xheralt,
you assume that alpha males are never awkward around girls. methinks you assume too much.
Awesonapolus just wants to seem cool and make other people feel socially inept. It makes him feel superior by comparison.
Also, if written dialogue ever seems stilted, it is because you are bad at reading. People speak in different ways. If you can’t imagine someone saying something, it’s because you’re imagining them speaking a different way than the author did – most likely you’re imagining them speaking the way you speak, or in the manner of some incorrect archetype. This is a common problem with novice readers, and one that grade schools don’t really do a good job of trying to fix. Reading, when done right, involves almost all the same skills as acting. It basically *is* acting, in fact, except the stage is in your mind, and your only audience is yourself.
The stilted dialogue didn’t really seem that noticeable to me, although my assessment is colored by being an Aspie who doesn’t usually try to cover over my honest sentiments.
What I’m curious about is the whole love/hate relationship Di and Baxter have been having lately, which seems to mostly depend on comedies of errors of the type so pointedly obvious in the dialogue. Correlation without an obvious reason makes me look for a shared cause.
Angry Face is ANGRY!!! XD
And I’m enjoying this story… I don’t see the problem then again… I am an Aspie myself.
Still don’t get why this issue of Aspie’s was brought up. I mean if you think there’s something worng with the dialog just say that… >.> And try to improve the problem and not add new ones to it.
And I’m still thinking I’ll be the closest to that silly meaningless bet we had made earlier in this storyline. Because this Date is totally going to end on a high note! I’m 100% sure of it!
Oh, man. I almost forgot how quick the geek crowd is to pull out the “I am an aspie, you see” card. Self-diagnosed in most cases, of course.
@Lockez:
“This is a common problem with novice readers, and one that grade schools don’t really do a good job of trying to fix. Reading, when done right, involves almost all the same skills as acting. It basically *is* acting, in fact, except the stage is in your mind, and your only audience is yourself.”
Or the writing could be the problem and not the reader. But hey, thanks for the passive agressive “You may be a novice reader”. Really. As an insult it is so fake-posh that it is adorable.
“you are reading it wrong” has all the stench of an excuse by a bad writer or a fan of some work when confronted by criticism of the thing he likes. There are cases when the statement can be true, but you still sound bad by saying it.
One of those phrases like “I don’t mean to pry, but…” or “It is too deep, you wouldn’t understand it…” that are completely counterproductive to any attempts to make a point.
@ Campbell:
I have read a lot of your comics. And I have noticed that your characters have a tendency for exposing their feelings very blatantly. They really come out and say it, with a sudden total lack of personal emotional mechanisms after a token time of being “subtle” about it.
Plot point X comes and suddenly character A puts all its emotional cards on the table and discusses it with character B, who responds by also revealing it all.
The result is usually a stilted conversation between two characters who seem to lack all boundaries or mechanisms of emotional self preservation (Unless the situation is so dire that two heart-to-heart conversations are necessary, with one of the parties acting hostile or lying the first time around).
At some level you must already know that your characters tend to be too much like open books. The rest of the cast is hardly surprised when A and B get together or simply already hint at knowing the “secret” that C character has been hiding.
And man, if you notice that the core demographic of what you normally read is composed by abnormal personality types with poor interpersonal skills, you have a serious problem if you intend to develop as a writer for character-driven fiction.
Unless you want to forever have “I am a self diagnosed aspie and I think these are very genuine conversations and realistic characters” as your average reader, really force yourself beyond your usual fields of interest. Really read and analyse books that are too boring for guys like LockeZ. Seriously. Look at that avatar. It is a fat guy with a hat.
Or you could continue like this. You already have a niche market which may satisfy your aspirations and provide you with a steady paycheck.
I have probably crossed a line and been too rude, so I press “Post Comment” with the knowledge that you will probably delete this comment. But seriously. Take a look at the persons defending your work. Your fans. Aren’t you the least bit disatisfied? Oh sure you can’t say anything bad about them because they are the ones willing to pay for your product.
But there’s a fat guy with a hat implying that your writing is too nuanced for “novice writers”.
I am nothing but one of many that doesn’t like your comic, statistically insignificant, but take a look at THAT guy. That is the kind of guy you are pleasing.
Is that satisfying? Really? In terms of a writer and his readers, that would be like giving up and marrying a fat chick.
Excuse me. I’m not fat, I’m just the same color as the wall when my photo is reduced to monochrome.
And this comic doesn’t show every minute of the characters’ lives. Why would the writer show the parts where the characters *don’t* openly talk about the important things? Those conversations, those parts of this coversation are not meaningful. You’ll notice that there was a large time skip from when Di picked up Baxter for the date and when this coversation took place. All that time was spent with your precious “realistic” conversation where they didn’t actually say anything meaningful about themselves or about each-other. But we can imagine what that part was like. So the comic skips to the meat – the two minutes of the date where they actually said something honest. And thank God, because I don’t really want to read an 80 page chapter detailing how a typical first date goes.
Oh wow, T. Awesonapulus has clearly schooled you. Obviously there’s nothing for you to do but sit at his feet and learn “good writing” from him, so that people can continue to “pay for your product,” said product being a free webcomic.
And of course, Awesonapulus’s posts are solely motivated by a sincere desire to see you get a better class of fan than an Aspie. (Because we all know people with Aspberger’s Syndrome are terrible and no one should ever be associated with them, right?) They’re totally not meant to make him feel better by putting down a bunch of people on the Internet.
Oh, but wait! I’m not an Aspie, self-diagnosed or otherwise. I guess that means I can’t be one of T’s fans. Guess that means I won’t be contributing to T’s vast store of wealth he’s clearly earning from this “product.” (As opposed to writing because he enjoys it and wishes to share his stories with others.) Oh well. I’m sure T is almost as crushed by that as he’s crushed to the point of despair and self-cutting by the realization that he’s a failure as a writer, because all his readers are “fat guys with hats.” Oh, wait, I thought they were all Aspies. Unless the diagnostic criteria for Aspberger’s have been revised to include excess weight and cranial apparel.
Though I do appreciate the hilariousness of using “fat guy in a hat” as an attack on me. Was that really the best you could come up with? I own a hat! I even took a photo of myself in it! Wow, what damning evidence against me!
@alicemacher
If I were here to put you down, I would actually do that rather than comment on the comic. But I am done with that as from this point on the conversation can only continue as snide remarks and insults.
Let me demonstrate I really do not care for “putting you down”. I have said what I wanted to say, so I am leaving. You are entirely free to take this as a gesture of cowardice because I am running away from confrontation. Pat each other on the back if you wish.
My opinion is that the the “intimate” interactions of the characters in this comic seem stilted because the characters suddenly develop aspie-level emotional defenses. That turns conflict resolution formulaic. Like they are b-rate actors demonstrating the doctrine of conflict resolution of a high school counselor.
A pair of robots discussing the mechanics of their feelings. Two vulcans debating mating rituals with a few funny faces thrown in. Like the cast turns aspie when it is time to resolve an emotional issue, regardless of their personalities.
That’s it. No more reiteration.
P.S.
@LockeZ:
You are the very model of a modern Major-Fatty with a hat.
Couldn’t resist a final poke at that guy. “you are reading it wrong, me and this group of self described aspies agree that…” Hahaha.
Shalom.
sigh…
trolls…. (no matter how well spoken)
gotta love the intertubes…
I’m amazed at how well worded and properly thought out T’s response was. It was very gentle and caring.
@Awesonapulus dude its a webcomic that has been popular for many years written by an author that has ALOT of experience and many popular comics… now your critiquing his work and thats fine its your choice and right to do so my only question is what are YOUR qualifications. I would not take a critique of your magnitude from anyone off the internet unless they themselves were an author or publisher or in some form a successful member of the creative writing process.
Now if you have no qualifications then stop whining about how much this wonderfull writer, who gives me some fun and enjoyment during my day just be reading his FREE comic, cant write and go complain somewhere were your insults about his free work and your insults on mental retardation will be better accepted…
go be gone get lost we dont need or want your negativity here…
Awesonapulus,
Your argument about the quality of fans fails flat because you, yourself, must be a fan in order to be posting here and for your claim that you know Campbell’s work to be credible. We can’t take you seriously if you are lumping yourself in a group you are saying should not be taken seriously.
Stupid Troll is Stupid…
I mean… Really why did this Troll even bring up the whole “Wow is teh writer of this an Aspie?”
To me, it seems likely that he enjoys humiliating himself with inane, contentless phrases like “playing the Aspie card.”
I cannot think of any other reason, personally. “Trolling” itself is a very subjective sort of category, but there is never, in my experience, a genuine reason for it. (False accusations of “trolling” or of “being the real troll” also get thrown about quite a bit, although in this case, it does seem like he is genuinely convinced of his vague and unclear grudges.)
Personally, I think that to the extent that “trolling” can be explained, it is the result of insufficient attention paid to poor behavior such as the obvious prejudice above. Social norms tend to encourage the opposite, though, unfortunately. “Do not feed the trolls” ends up encouraging bad behavior because there is no social penalty involved.
Case in point — I am still tempted to respond to the ridiculous “diagnosed or undiagnosed” question, but it would play into prejudice to say that I am diagnosed. Am I wrong to share these thoughts? Probably, but less wrong than I would be to keep them hidden, and also less wrong than I’d be to ignore them.
Personally, I’d enjoy it if people would actually understand the comic before making flippant, offensive and hurtful comments that serve no purpose other than to encourage prejudice. That is my own subjective preference. Sorry to take up so much space.
@5ColorControl I agree with Awesonapulus. I’m a fan of this comic for its action adventure. The interpersonal relationship side stories are almost always low points in the comic, but I’m still a fan.
If more people spent less time on 4chan and more time paying attention to the people around them, we’d have less arguments like this, methinks.
Do I think everyone who says they have Aspergers (which incidentally does not appear in the Firefox corrective dictionary– odd, that) actually has Aspergers?
Probably not.
Do I think everyone who says that they talk calm, collected, and emotionally ambiguous all the time does as they say?
Hell no.
I don’t have Aspergers, yet I speak sincerely when speaking about matters like this, because that’s the only way for me to speak about things like this without coming off as a socially inept jackdaw or appearing to be mired in self denial. Interestingly enough, most of the people I have opened up to on a similar level respond in kind.
Even disregarding that possibility, though, unless I live in a section of the world being lightly gassed with truth serum or something, most of the people I know are emotionally open if prompted, and– here’s the silly little crux of my argument– this is a prompting situation.
Di took Bax on a date. Some might say it’s to show him how a real date works, others might say it’s because she genuinely wanted a date with him, others still would say that it’s bad writing. She figured out who he was through the body-swap incident, and he’s obviously coming to terms with the personal revelations he gained from it.
When you take into consideration that (unless things have changed) the body swap technology doesn’t actually swap bodies, just brain patterns, that means that was Bax being Alpha Manly, not Marc. He got a taste of what it was to be 98% self-confident, and appears to be trying to figure out his side of the matter.
Di, on the other hand, is largely confident on the outside, but has superiority issues (remember her many, many mistakes with Ally), and as T stated, doesn’t do well outside her comfort zone (which often manifests as blunt, open statements).
Add to that the fact that he has little experience with females in any context other than them approaching him with ‘I need something from you’ and you’ve got a situation where he can either
A) Brush off his emotions and act insensitive, solving nothing,
B) Try to get through the date with as little conversation possible (least likely to occur given the circumstances),
C) Dance around the point like an idiot until Di either leaves or forces it out of him,
or
D) Get it out in the open now and get it over with, and hope she is willing to discuss it.
I don’t know about you, but I’d rather pick the option with the highest gain:pain ratio, regardless of which position I’m in.
Hah, oh, Awesanalpolos, or whatever you aborted spelling/grammar fetus of a screen name is, I love you guys, I really do. I don’t really have a name for you guys, I mean, there are internet trolls, and then there’s YOUR breed of internet troll. You like to come in, call out people on their flaws, and then flay them with your superior wit, working them into a rage. It gets you attention, and, like a mosquito feeding off an invalid, you feed off of the resulting “lulz”.
Now, the thing is, I’ll admit that, yeah, T’s dialogue doesn’t always run smoothly. But, hell, it runs smoother than most crap I try to write. No one is perfect. If you wanted well-worked dialogue and deep characters, I suggest looking elsewhere, like a classic novel. (I suggest “Where Angels Fear To Tread”, recently read it, great book)
But, hell, that’s supposing that you actually came to this comic looking for something to read. You didn’t. Hell, you probably don’t really read webcomics at all, do you? Nah, you just saw a good, untapped resource for a flame war. I’m really surprised the other people here are taking you seriously. I mean, I don’t take offense when I hear a person with Tourrette’s screaming curse-words. I just ignore ’em. They go about their business.
So, guys, there ya go. What’s the lesson, children? Don’t take stuff on the internet personally. And if you don’t want a flame war, just ignore it. You’re not going to change anyone’s opinion, no matter who it is, by arguing with them over the internet. And, for T.’s sake, even though I like interacting with internet trolls (because I don’t take a damn thing they say seriously), that’s all I’ll say on the matter. Of course, that is, unless Lockez, Alice, or someone whom I know isn’t out trollin’ wants to weigh in on the matter.
Now, if you’ll excuse me, I have a final to write. 😛
Eh, I was merely amused at the whole “I don’t like T’s dialogue, ergo he has Asperger’s and so do all his fans” leap of logic, and decided to indulge my amusement. (As I did once and only once in the Guilded Age blog comments, in response to the barrage of “We hate the direction the story’s taken and demand you change it back to the way it was” complaints.) In the Tea Room forum, T runs a much tighter ship, so I wouldn’t do that there. “Don’t feed trolling,” indeed. (I don’t call people “trolls” because I prefer to focus on the behaviour, not the person.) Besides, we nearly never see in the Tea Room such audacity as directly insulting the writer, not even from certain individuals who repeatedly and compulsively come in only to say how much they hate Penny and Aggie.
The only other thing I’ve to say is that I was pleasantly surprised Awesonapulus let me off so easy in his response. So there’s hope. 😀
@Locke: Man, now you’ve got me dying of curiosity. My impression is that A’s complaint is that there’s a lot of feelings-tell and less feelings-show, but issues with FLOW are another category altogether. You can elaborate on that separately if you like.
Back from a great weekend with the goddaughter, but running behind on scripts and chores, and THIS is the first thing I get to deal with! Oh, boy!
I love my readers, so I try to always give them the benefit of the doubt, even though Awesonapulus’s given e-mail address– notgivingyouthatsoyoucanbanit@gmail.com— was a pretty big tip-off that he was only looking for trouble. Don’t worry, “Awesome,” I won’t ban your e-mail address! Or even your IP, since some nice people might live there. I’ll just be deleting your future comments… unless you force my hand further, in which case I’ll take what measures I deem necessary. You can talk smack about ME all day, but when you start lobbing childish insults at my readers, then it goes too far.
I’m sort of glad this conversation happened, though. For one thing, I’ve been living with slight uncertainty about my mental-health status for years. Since this happened, I’ve had many friends– one of which is a former mental health professional– inform me that there’s “no way in hell” I have Asperger’s. There’s a lot of misinformation going around about what the syndrome is, exactly, and I’m afraid I may have bought into some of it. I’m just a quirky oddball freak.
For another, it is worth examining, this tendency of mine to have characters talk openly about their feelings. I think it probably grows out of a belief that such openness leads to a healthy, happy life, and frustration with many TV shows I watched in my formative years. In those shows, even five minutes of such conversation could have resolved dozens of stupid conflicts. The refusal to do so made me lose respect for the characters. Maybe it did make them more realistic (honesty is often difficult), but it made them realistic characters I didn’t care about.
I also have to bear medium-related constraints in mind. Readers’ interpretations of any situation can vary wildly, no matter how it’s presented. Given that, there is a certain pressure to err on the side of clarity when it’s really important to give them the right idea.
I have roughly four frames each time to make something interesting happen. If it’s not something funny or exciting, then it better be significant.
Your Mileage May Vary. I enjoy the work of Brian Michael Bendis, whose style some find mannered and some find very naturalistic. He’d never do a talk like this: even when his characters are being introspective, they parcel out their insights a lot more slowly. Most best-selling novelists seem to eschew introspective dialogue and reserve their insights for the text, or thus has been my recent experience with Ian McEwan, Jonathan Franzen and Jennifer Egan. But then you see plays like Romeo and Juliet, which uses it frequently, or No Exit, which is almost nothing but.
I’m constantly refining my approach, so I do like to go on about this. Gotta get some work done now, though. In closing, I’d say that there are definitely more thoughtful conversations to come in my future stories, but I will try to bear in mind– at least, until I internalize this– opportunities to make them more natural-sounding. (Again, in Bax and Di’s case, I think the awkwardness IS what’s natural for them.)
@Kadzooque:
Please re-read my comment. I said nothing about Awesonapulus’ likes or dislikes when it comes to the COMIC, or whether or not I agree or disagree with his assessment when it comes to the character’s relationships.
as a long time reader and fan of faans, I honestly have to agree with points brought up by mr troll. I have never met people who talk like this, ever. still a big fan of the comic though, I guess it doesn’t get in my way enough to bother me, since I enjoy the plot and crazy adventures enough.
Man, I’d almost rather be completely demonized than hear “compliments” like “I love it, but I never met anyone who talks like this” or “Hey, nobody’s perfect, I didn’t come here for well-worked dialogue or deep characters. I just like when they punch stuff.”
I’ve recently heard a few more people say that this is turning out very like dates they’ve had with friends, so I’m starting to think that some of you guys need to go out and meet more people… or at least stop assuming you know the full range of how people express themselves. Nobody’s spoken about any internal inconsistencies: just how “foreign” the characters feel to their experience. Being a geek does not mean you automatically know what all geeks are like.
I mean, I don’t want to become blind to criticism, but when some people are telling me “nobody talks like this” and others are telling me “I talk like this,” I start to think the problem isn’t with me, after all.
Tempted as I am to link directly to TV Tropes (because I’m a geek), I won’t. 😀 Nevertheless, the wiki has a fine article entitled “Realistic Diction Is Unrealistic,” which makes the same point a number of writing instructors do. And that point is: if you’re looking for “real-life” dialogue in fiction, well…keep looking. In real life, people stutter, repeat themselves, insert filler words and syllables, interrupt each other, make asides (“And then she says–God, this coffee sucks–‘What are you thinking?'”), and generally do things that would make their conversation unbearably tedious and, yes, awkward to read as part of a story. Also, real-life conversations, much like real life in general, don’t always have tidy beginnings, climaxes and conclusions. The requirements of fiction, however, are different, in that dialogue is mean to suit the needs of the plot, and not of verisimilitude to reality. Also, as T says, dialogue in fiction is meant to suit the characters who speak it. So if a character is a lacking in social graces, laying all cards on the table sort of person, her dialogue should reflect that. Just as if a character is a smooth, socially at-ease type who conceals as much, or more, as he reveals, his dialogue should reflect that.
If “real-life” dialogue is what some people are after, that’s perfectly acceptable. They would, however, do better to seek that by eavesdropping in coffee shops, or in line at the airport, than by reading fiction.
Ya know, if I had any complaint with your writings, it’d be that you do the show, don’t tell thing a bit too much where it becomes difficult to understand certain details. I only mention this because you just said that your interpretation of A’s complaint was the exact opposite. But, if you did make things more expository instead of showing it, it would feel different. So I guess the point of this is to keep doing what you’re doing. I know you’re always seeking to improve yourself, but sometimes, some things just don’t need to be improved if they’re already good enough, and your writing is brilliant, in my opinion.
Catching up with the archives…for anyone that comes after me: did you also find it funny that the guy ridiculing aspies spent a couple paragraphs mocking a guy’s gravatar?
Hope you don’t mind me lurking around the archives. I can normally do that without chiming in a conversation that’s several months old in which the most important issues have already been brought up, but this particular conversation jumped at me.
Troll boy didn’t even bothered to actually read the comic he was too cool to enjoy. Troll boy’s whole case was “I don’t talk like this, therefore this dialog doesn’t ring true”. In other words, “this comic blows because I’m not in it”
Troll boy wasn’t bothered by the fact a guy like Baxter isn’t supposed to sound like Joe Sixpack. Baxter is cursed with being snarky, self-conscious, a little neurotic and, worst of all, Genre Savvy. He knows what kind of character he is supposed to be: scrawny tech-head outcast who gawks awkwardly at girls like Di (or at girls in general). Baxter obviously objects to this simplistic labeling and tries to go against it, but he seems to be the first to admit he’s not sure how. Baxter is smart enough to know Di can see all this clearly, and knows that trying to feed Di a crock of BS head games is an insult to both her and himself, as well as a huge waste of time. Hence, Baxter bares his cards exposed.
Now, Di is quite a different kind of person, but she’s smart and Genre Savvy as well. She seems used to deal with guys like Baxter (with all kinds of guys, really). She can talk their language (so to speak) and empathize. Actually, that’s the reason she instigated this little date in the first place, isn’t it? To talk to Baxter and find out what he felt for her. Obviously, you can’t ask someone to strip bare their feelings for you without doing so yourself (that is, if you’re not a shrink) so, once again, there’s why those two doodles are getting their emotions out into the open so blatantly.
That would have been easy to comprehend if Mr. Troll boy would have just looked at the words as well as the pretty drawings (instead of being staring at other people’s gravatars looking for cute guys)
At least he had the presence of mind to not fly apart and actually as for her to explain what she meant. Given who we know him to be, that’s what she should expect, so he’s not being unreasonable. He’s actually trying to figure out what’s going on.